Home > Programs > Debates > 2000 Senate Debate

2000 U.S. Senatorial Debate - Transcript

October 22, 2000, NBC 12 Richmond, Va.
Moderator: Larry J. Sabato
Candidates: Chuck Robb (D), George Allen (R)

Sabato>>>>We are proud to bring this debate to the people of Virginia. This is going to be an unusually tough debate with difficult questions for these distinguished candidates who are old friends.

We've eliminated all the puffball questions because one of these two men will be casting thousands of votes on behalf of all Virginians over the next six years.

We've included the young people in Virginia in this debate through the Center for Governmental Studies Youth Leadership Initiative. That Youth Leadership Initiative is sponsoring the largest online mock election in our nation's history on November 2.

As we speak, students participating in the Youth Leadership Initiative are conducting a live on line chat. Students who are watching this debate may log on right now www.youthleadership.net to join in.

As we begin, I want to thank all the NBC stations throughout Virginia and the district of columbia as well at Virginia news network. I especially want to salute our host news 12 NBC 12 here in Richmond. I would also like to thank the dutko group Companies for their general sponsorship of this evenings debate as well as our other supporters ivor massey and anne thompson.

Our format tonight is fast paced and being web cast across the country on msnbc.com.

This is also the most interactive debate in Virginia's history, with an electronic town hall featuring questions submitted on line by Virginia in recent weeks.

Now Mr. Robb will deliver his opening remarks and do so first as determined by a coin toss.

Mr. Robb, you have one minute.

Robb >>> Thank you, Larry and welcome to those of you who are watching at home. In two weeks we're going to make an important choice. And tonight I hope we can help you make it.

George Allen and I have very different records and is very different approaches so to is some very important issues.

But there is one over arching issue that affects everything else that we will be talking about. How do we pay for what we're going to be promising.

George is promising to spend more than two trillion dollars for tax cuts which will not only wipe out the entire surplus but also force us to raid social security and there wouldn't be a penny left over for any the spending increasing George is also promising if we pay for all the promised tax cuts we will have no money left over to reduce class size and a strengthen our military or improve our roads to give a tracks break for college or pay down the debtor anything else.

In short, George has a math problem.

He's making promises he can't keep and america can't afford. And I look forward to the questions.

Sabato>>> Thank you very much Mr. Robb. And now Mr. Allen you also have one minute to deliver your opening statement.

Allen >>> Thank you all for watching. Ladies and gentlemen this election is about your future. My opponent and I have honest differences about how to secure that future. He believes if we just raise tax and send more money to Washington that the federal government will solve all of our problems. That's why he has voted with president Clinton 90 percent of the time and that is why he is supporting Al Gore in his big government agenda.

Governor Bush and I have a different vision. We trust people. We want you to have a wise and frugal government that reflects your common sense and decency and we want you to keep more of what you earn so you can build a better life for you yourself and your children.

As your senator I want to bring people together with a positive agenda to improve education and protect social security to provide tax relief and help working families face and meet the chAllenges that they will face in the future.

I look forward to discussing that positive vision with you this evening.

Sabato >>> Thank you Mr. Allen. And now I want to proceed to the first of several segments that we're going to have called the electronic town hall. For weeks now Virginians have been submitting over 500 questions through email mainly for this debate tonight. And believe me they are g I wish we had time to use every one of them. But we selected a few of the very best tonight and we're going to be using them throughout the hour. Each candidate will have one minute and 30 seconds to reply to his question and there will be no rebuttal. And I will enforce the rules unlike another moderator I can think of recently.

Mr. Robb, the first question is addressed to you from Tom in Richmond. Senator Robb, taking into consideration lasting week's attack on the u.s.s. cole during the ship's refueling stop over in yemen a stop over necessary stated by the defense cut backs which have made it impossible for the navy to refuel all ships at sea as had previously been done do you regret supporting President Clinton's reduction of defense spending and if not what do you say to the Virginia families directly affected by this recent terrorist attack?

Robb>>> Well let me begin by saying that I have met with the Virginia families that were directly affected senator warner and I went down on two occasions and met with them and spoke to them privately. I think any communications that we had with the family would ought to remain private.

With respect to the larger question of defense cutbacks, as I think you and the questioner are undoubtedly aware those began before the current administration. They began as a matter of fact under president Bush and vice-president cheney was very much involved and he has acknowledged as much in recent times. Specific refueling that was required if refueling is required in a number of instances it is something prudent given the fact that we are substantially reduced the overall defense spending for over a decade.

We are now starting to gear back up incidentally. The last two years we have added spending and I have been a strong advocate to in suggesting to our individual service chiefs and the others that they are going to have to make a better case so we can make certain that we can make the case to the american people.

We can't have defense on the cheap. We're going to have to pay for additional defense capability. We have had the luxury of what is in effect been a peace dividend for the last ten years or. So but since the fall of berlin wall and the disintegration of the soviet union and the warsaw pact the situation has occurred the old scenario is no more.

We are in the process of transitioning from that very heavy force that we had in the past to a modern force that is prepared to deal with the chAllenges we face today.

Sabato>>> Thank you Mr. Robb.

The next question is for Mr. Allen. Thomas Harrison of Front Royal states that every day many thousands of road weary commuter ins northern Virginia and elsewhere throughout the state spend long frustrating hours trapped in slow moving traffic consuming vast amounts of expensive gasoline and our environment as a direct result of your down sizing of state government Mr. Allen. In particular, the Virginia department of transportation, which was decimated by your generous buy outs. What answer do you have for these disgruntled commuters that might somehow persuade them to vote for you?

Allen >>> I would say to my friend from the Front Royal / Warren County area, I hate sitting in traffic as much as everyone else does in this state. I realize in the northern Virginia area that the traffic is especially annoying and aggravating.

There are several things I'm very proud that we did while I was governor of Virginia. 1st we stopped the raids on the transportation trust fund. That saved about a quarter of a billion dollars that was being diverted previously.

We also created innovative approaches like a public transportation act which is allowing the private sector to build new transportation facilities all across the Virginia all from the route 28 to the pocahontas which is here.

I'm going to make sure that the money you are paying in gas taxes goes into the transportation trust fund and goes for use for transportation.

As governor I worked with senator warner to increase the Share we get back in federal gas taxes. We're only getting 79 cents back for every dollar we sent to Washington. We got it back to 90 cents when this comes up for reauthorization I want us to get a dollar back for every dollar we send to Washington which will mean billions of dollars more for transportation in Virginia.

I want to provide leadership to provide metro style rail, and a program and project I started while governor. And look at tell working and telecommuting so people don't have to drive all the way to northern Virginia or D.C. area. With all working people will have a better quality of life.

Sabato>>> now we're going to move along to our press panel.

I want to introduce them in addition to myself it consists of Julie Carry of NBC 4. Gene Leftly of NBC 12, Les Smith of WAVY TV and Jessica Anne Bowers, an outstanding Youth Leadership Initiative student from Heritage High School in Newport News.

Now I've been scheduled to ask the 1st question. That 1st tough question to Mr. Allen.

And Mr. Allen you will have one minute and 30 seconds to respond. Mr. Allen I would like to show you and our audience a brief video clip of you while you were governor of Virginia. This was taped at the republican convention that nominated oliver north for the U.S. Senate. Roll the clip, please.

Allen videotape >>> And my friends I say figuratively let's enjoy knocking their soft teeth down their whining throats.

Sabato>>> Mr. Allen, your own wife, your own chief of staff asked you not to say those words about the Democrats since you were governor of all the people in Virginia. But you did it anyway, just as you have uttered other inflammatory statements during your political career. Can you see why Virginians by an overwhelming margin in a recent Time Dispatch - Channel 12 poll judged Mr. Robb and not you as someone who looks and acts like a senator?

Allen >> So what's the question? I'm supposed to answer the poll question?

Sabato>>> the question is very clear, Mr. Allen, please proceed you have 1 minute.

Allen>>> I'm glad you had the word figuratively. I take full blame for that comment that I made at the Republican Convention. We were sitting there in the locker room I thought the speech need ad stronger ending and there I was thinking of locker room talk and what would motivate a team that my father would be coaching.

Yes my wife told me that I shouldn't put that in it in the speech. Although it said figuratively. Nevertheless what people see in me is makes promises and keeps its promises.

When I ran for governor I said we would abolish parole we would reform welfare and recruit new jobs to the Commonwealth of Virginia and also make sure that our education system had accountability and high academic standards.

I say what most people care about is someone keeping their promises. I think the people of Virginia ought to have a U.S. Senator who shares their values who shares their common sense. Somebody who will go up to Washington looking up the taxpayer and working families and for people realize that in the united states senate one can do many positive things for the people of Virginia and the best way one can judge what somebody will do in the future is by their past performance.

And Virginia is a much safer, much clean era much more prosperous place for us to live, learn work and raise Our families.

And that's what I think the people of Virginia will judge me on. And why I think they would like to have a senator who they can trust in the U.S. Senate.

Sabato >>> Thank you Mr. Allen. The next question from Mr. Rob comes from Julie.

Carey >>> Mr. Robb, you have blamed most the severe transportation problems in the state on Mr. Allen's policies as governor. But for the 1st three years of your term of governor transportation spending fell below that of your predecessor and you left your Democratic successor's situation even he termed a massive transportation crisis. just as you blame Mr. Allen shouldn't you also have to shoulder blame for failing for recognizes an adequately address the crisis we are struggling with today?

Robb>>> Let me begin by saying all of who served in the office of governor for a number of years all knew that we had to do more. And the 1st thing I did as governor and the only tax increase that I supported, no general tax increase was to support the crow 2 cents tax increase that my predecessor had not been able to get through we increased road construction by 61 percent of my worthy opponent by about 24 percent. He also fired about 1400 members of the Virginia department of transportation including a number of key management personal and engineers go and a number of rstimates as suggested that set the program back some four years in some cases and it isn't just northern Virginia.

I've heard from people all over the state suggesting that their highway projects have been significantly delayed and in cases cancelled because of the set back and the people that were actually let go because of this system many cases had to be hired back while getting their retirement and buy out bonuses at a hired salary so we ended up paying considerably more for the expertise that we had.

In any event it is problem that all of us face all of us Virginians have to work on. Incidentally with the respect to 79 cents and the 90 cents, I have actually supported, voted for and its very, very difficult when you're dealing with highway funding formula, I wish my opponent well if he thinks it is as easy in terms of raising that rate.

Sabato>>> the next question directed to Mr. Allen comes from NBC 12. Gene.

Lepley>>> Mr. Allen let's talking about guns and gun control as governor we looked at your record. You pushed through a law in the legislature making it easier to get a concealed weapons permit. You also vetoed a measure that would have allowed local governments to ban guns in recreation centers. Now that you're running for senate you've changed your stance especially on the issue of assault weapons you were once against it and now you are for a ban on assault weapons. Many gun owners say you have compromised your principle on the right to keep and bear arms are there other principles at risk here what can voters really think. What will they get when you get to Washington?

Allen>>> What the voters will get if I'm the U.S. Senator is what they got from me while I was the governor. And that is one who believes we need to crackdown on criminals. What we did in Virginia is abolish parole. That the central issue.

There were people that said we ought to get rid of the one gun a month law. It is perfectly consistent with my statements all along when I say I don't care to repeal any laws let's enforce the laws whether there are ten or ten thousand, enforce the laws.

In Virginia I'm proud of our records because what we did is we took away the rights of criminals to be in our neighborhoods, in our parking garages and preying upon law biding citizens. And unlike my opponent we abolished pearl and the violent crime rate is down 24 percent.

Now in the U.S. Senate what I think we need to do is not again take away the rights of law abiding citizens to protect themselves or their families what we need are common sense approaches. No. 1 crackdown on drug dealers and we have the experience here in Virginia project exile where federal, state and local law enforcement work together on combatting illegal possession of guns.

The same sort of effort needs to be made on drugs and in my view anybody who sells drugs to a child ought to get a mandatory minimum ten years in prison no parole, no early release. That is the approach that will make our streets and communities much safer.

Sabato>>> Thank you there Mr. Allen. The next question is from Mr. Robb from Les Smith.

Smith>>> Mr. Robb you run a television ad saying you voted with the Bush administration the majority the time and you did vote with them 57 percent of the time on this average. But you voted with the Clinton Gore administration on average 86 percent of the time. There's no mention of this in your ad. In this campaign are you running away from your support for the Clinton Gore administration trying to portray yourself more conservative than you really around and thereby mislead your record.

Robb>>> Absolutely not I'm very much supportive of the current candidate Al Gore and I have worked very closely with President Clinton on a number of issues. And if you take a look at some of those issues you will find that the vast majority of them are supported by the american people. Some of them aren't supported by my opponent. We may have a chance to get back in a minute.

But I am in no means running away from the good programs that my, that the president supported and that I supported. And that my opponent has opposed everything from the minimum wage law ban on assault weapons as he just pointed out he flip flopped on that particular questions to questions that relate to allowing individuals who have a new born child or a sick parent to go home on family leave and some of the other questions. My opponent was on the opposite side of each of those questions.

The question is not how many times I vote with president Clinton or president Bush I tried to support them in each case that I thought they were right and I voted against them and argued many times on the floor to positions that were contrary to their positions on the merits of a particular issue. But I will support as he's right I will oppose him if he is wrong.

Sabato>>> Thank you, there Mr. Robb. One final question in this round goes to Mr. Allen from the Youth Leadership Initiative Jessica.

Bowers>>> Hello. Mr. Allen, racial profiling where people are stopped as suspects on the basis of race or looks is an issue of great concern in the minority community. Throughout your political career you have championed causes like confederate history months which has made you unpopular with many african american groups and you were also known to display a confederate flag in your home prior to running for governor. Given your track record would you favor a bill that makes racial profiling illegal in a law that punishes people for hate crimes against blacks and other minorities.

Allen>>> Jessica thank you for your question and thank you also and everyone with the Youth Leadership Initiative for your initiative and especially for young people caring about their future because this campaign is about the future of all people regardless of age.

I'm one who believes very strongly in what martin luther king said when he had a dream, when he expressed his dream that all people would be judged not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I want to make sure that every single individual regardless of race ethnicity, gender, or religious belief has an equal opportunity to compete and succeed. And that means we have a good education system, we have positive tax policies, reasonable regulatory policies and we have safe communities.

Now I believe very strongly we can have safe communities without racial profiling. I would urge governors and states for law enforcement under their control to ban racial profiling as far as federal law enforcement is concerned yes I would support a bill that would ban racial profiling it has no place in our society.

I have run into individuals talked to individuals who had a D.C. license plate who live in north Virginia who talked about being stopped twice and the only way he could figure it out why he was stopped was because of the color of his skin.

And talking to real people in the real world that is faced with this, this has to stop and everything I can do as a U.S. Senator will be to stop racial profiling. We can have strong law enforcement but we did don't have to discriminate on the basis of race.

Sabato>>> Ten seconds. What about the hate crimes part of it?

Allen>>> I as governor I supported hate crimes legislation that prohibited discrimination on the basis of race or national origin or religion. At the federal law I would support it as well. I think as far as sexual orientation that is best addressed at the state level. But I think that if people want to enhance punishment because of someone they harm someone because of their sexual orientation, race or religion I would support it.

Sabato >>> I will add ten or so seconds time for an appropriate quesiton.

Robb>>> Of your choice I suspect.

Sabato>>> Of course that is of my choice. Thank you you're absolutely right. The electronic town hall I want to go back for that two more e questions from Virginia. And these are very interesting kind of a pair.

Mr. Robb, your question is from Ken in Centreville, Virginia.

Mr. Robb, the federal department of the interior is now considering kicking the boy scouts of america off of all federal lands because of the boy scouts refuse to allow homosexual to act as troop leaders as scouts. Do you believe that the boy scouts should be kicked off of federal land for disallowing homosexuals to serve as troop leaders?

Robb>>> No this I don't believe that the federal government should involve itself in the charters. Those are granted administratively and I don't see any role for the federal government to get involved. That doesn't suggest that I'm not disappointed in the particular action that is were taken by the boy scouts in not being more tolerant and more understanding, but it is within their rights as decided by the supreme court to do that. I regret that is the case but I don't challenge the ultimate right to do it. I think that they were just in this case wrong to make the judgment that they did. But I would not involve the federal government in a decision that it would not normally be involved.

Sabato >>> Given your answer you would favor the admission of gays as both members and troop leaders into the Boy Scouts of America?

Robb >>> What i've suggested and this apply to say virtually everything that deals with any kind of discrimination whether it is based on race, gender, ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation we ought to treat everybody fairly and the same. We ought not to discriminate. I have spent a great deal of my political career fighting discrimination prejudice wherever it raises its ugly head and I will continue to do so.

Sabato>>> Mr. Allen along the same lines your question is from Brad Hicks of Blacksburg, Virginia. Mr. Hicks wants to know whether or not the shooting of seven patron in a Roanoke gay bar recently affected your perception of the need to pass federal and state hate crimes legislation and to extend equal legal protection and responsibilities to gay and lesbian Virginians.

Allen>>> Well I think I answered this in the previous question. I already had my beliefs before that tragedy befell those patrons in the bar. And I think that's a tragedy and in Virginia obviously if this individual is found guilty, and I don't want to prejudice the case, he is going to be convicted of a crime. And the main thing that I think the voters and the people of Virginia should take comfort in is that in the event he gets a life sentence or whatever the sentence may be, it is actually going to be served. As opposed to the way it was before with the lenient dishonest parole system where somebody might get a life sentence and actually be released after serving 15 or 20 Years or if he got a 40 year sentence being released after a quarter or a fifth of the sentence.

My view and it always has been and I said it before the tragedy arose. Most the crimes are state crimes and it is the states where the prosecution will take place. It seems to me someone who has spent their entire life working to increase the penalties for those who commit violent crimes that if this is one place we can get the liberals to actually be in favor of an enhanced punishment we shouldn't take a different view. Now I think the states can handle this.

At the federal level if there is federal crime I don't mind allowing juries and judges to permit a harsher crime if it is based or race or sexual orientation or religious beliefs or gender so I think the penalties ought to be increased.

Sabato >>> Thank you there Mr. Allen we're now going to hear from the press panel again and I'm going to start off the segment by matching the question that I asked Mr. Allen with a question for Mr. Robb. Mr. Robb, Virginians would probably agree that the most important vote you cast in your current term as you U.S. Senator were the ones to totally equip the President Clinton of the impeachment charges.

Here is how you explain those critical votes the only time reporters could find you to discuss the matter. Show the clip, please.

Robb videotape>> everyone wrestles with their decision. Most of the decisions were separated by relatively fine differences in terms of interpretation of constitutional standards.

Sabato>>> Mr. Robb wholly apart from the fact that most people from Virginia have would probably not be persuaded by your constitutional hair splitting in the case of Bill Clinton's offenses the president lied to his staff, to his cabinet to his country and arguably to a court of law. Yet despite the disgust of the majority of have a you supported President Clinton on every single impeachment count and presidential vote. Do you believe that President Clinton deserves any formal punishment at all for his lies such as the disbarment being considered in arkansas or a reduction in his taxpayer supported pension?

Robb>>> well 1st of all the question of disbarment or any other civil proceeding is up to the courts. I have said repeatedly in fact, if you will read my 15 minute well crafted statement that I actually issued when making my opinion and it is on my web site I won't try to repeat the whole thing given the constraints of time here. I think you will find I had a very well reasoned opinion so well reasoned that a number of colleagues on both sides congratulated me afterwards I invite those that are truly interested in the question to take a look on it.

But with respect to the specifics all of the things you said are true with respect to that and you will find that included in my statement. The bottom line is I did not believe that the president or the crimes, the impeachment charges that were actually voted out by the house met the test that our framers put together for removal of a president from office. It was really designed to be bribery, treason and other crimes against the united states I think is the wording and that was only dropped by a style committee that had no authority to make any kind of substantive changes.

So it was designed to be a very difficult standard. Again I point this out in great detail. I quote a number of Virginia framers and others who participated if that decision. I think it is important. Did I miss any parts the question?

Sabato>>> The reduction in President Clinton taxpayer supported pension.

Robb>>> well if that should come up we will deal with it at the time. I don't think that is one the of the pressing issues at the moment and I would take a look at it based on whatever arguments are made at the time.

Sabato >>> The next question goes to Mr. Allen from NBC Julie.

Carey>>> Mr. Allen at a previous debate when asked a question about abortion you gave an answer that confused many. You said if row v. Wade were no longer the law of the land you would support protecting an unborn state of development when you have a beating heart measurable brain waves sensitive to a touch inutero thumb sucking. Virginia women in particular are left wondering at what point you believe they should be permitted to have a legal oh abortion during the 1st month of pregnancy, two months, three months or beyond.

Allen>>> Julie, I thank you for asking this question because i've always had a position of reasonable moderation on this very difficult issue. There are those that are for abortion for no reason whatsoever. And there are others that would stop abortion from the point of conception on. I think those are good medical ways of looking or scientific ways of looking when has the unborn child or fetus developed to such a stage where there's a quality of life or development or where there is a compelling interest on the part of the government, the state government to protect that unborn child or fetus.

Reason I look at it that way is that I looked legally in my own heart and also emotionally in my own heart and Mind of what makes sense. We look at the end of life when people don't have a beating heart. They're brain dead there not sensitivity to shock and touch.

If seemed to me it would be a good criteria when there would be a compelling end. Now when 24 would occur there are those that will say it is eight weeks and a few days and maybe ten weeks and a few days. That's not the point. It is not a time. It is a quality of development of life that I think that if the state so desired they could protect that unborn child. But the real issues that are going to come up around parental notification which I'm for and a taxpayer funding of abortion which I'm against. And prohibiting partial bother abortion which is lay term gruesome procedure. And on those issues I do disagree with my opponent as well.

Sabato>>> The next question is for Mr. Robb.

Lepley>>> Thank you, Larry. I've heard you referred to by a nickname the invisible senator. I think by implication here we know you are part of the Washington social world but in some minds you do not appear to take a prominent role in the issues of national debate in the senate even though you've been there two terms 12 years. Voters in this state especially in south side, southwest Virginia believe you don't see them all that much between elections they think you only reach out to them during the campaigns why should they vote for you againif they feel you don't visit them enough to hear their concerns firsthand?

Robb>>> Let me say he get around and a visit as many people as I can. I was elected to a represent the people in Virginia. Regrettably we are in session although I would concede we are not doing productive work all the time, but I have been identified as many of you know recently with legislation that led to the largest civil rights settlement in american history for over discrimination against black farmer, I've arrested the cops in schools program to get over 2 thousand school safety officers over the nation. I work very hard to repeal the telephone excise program. And we very recently worked to secure about 400 million dollars of additional funding for ship repair to say keep our 300 ship navy afloat and safe. And I fought consistently for the balanced budget et cetera.

I've got a long list I would be happy to talk about. Let me take whatever I have time left to take just a minute about the question that was raised by my opponent with respect to abortion. I would have to say that I don't think it is reasonable or moderate to over turn the supreme court decision that basically protects women with the right to choose. I don't think it is reasonable or moderate to invade the 1st trimester in terms of over turning it. I am for parental notification. And I am against late term abortion and have presented specific legislation to that fact.

Sabato>>> thank you, Mr. Robb. The next question for Mr. Allen will come next.

Smith>>> Mr. Allen a television question accused senator Robb of voting against welfare reform seven times the fact is he supported the welfare reform bill that became law in 1996. He did voth against republican amendments. Sir doesn't that ad distort the truth, mislead voters and is this an example of the Virginia values you want to take to Washington?

Allen>>> I'm very much proud of what we've done in Virginia on welfare reform. We passed a two years almost two years before the federal government and President Clinton and his Congressional cheerleaders finally allow it to pass.

Now what we did in Virginia we promoted the work ethic and individual responsibility. And the results have been great for Virginia. Well over 300 million dollars in taxpayer money saved. But best of all there are tens of thousands of individuals leading independent self-reliant lives rather than looking to the government for a check every month. The social service agency have become job placements agencies meanwhile up in Washington while we were doing this President Clinton was vetoing time after time republican initiated welfare reform. My opponent voted at least five times against requiring able bodied people on welfare to work the only time when you say he voted for the final bill the only time he voted for it in the midst of the election in 1996. President Clinton realized american people thought we ought to have welfare reform the states were already doing it Virginia, wisconsin's, massachusetts and otherwise. And he gave the green light to my opponent who has always been quite defferential to the President Clinton and said now you all, I'm going to have to sign this bill. I cannot be toed a third time.

That's not leadership. That's not welfare reform that we've seen here in Virginia. I think Virginia wants honest leadership and not this sort of imagery in the midst of an election all of sudden their favored welfare reform.

Sabato >>> thank you, Mr. Allen. The last question in this round goes to Mr. Robb from our outstanding youth leader Jessica Anne Bowers.

Bowers>>> Mr. Robb, you've stated that education is key issue in this campaign. Furthermore, one of your television ads refers to you as the education governor. The ad makes note that you are fighting to modernize schools increase accountability, and reduce class sizes. Having introduced or cosponsored bills designed to accomplish these goals none have ever made it out of committee. A student the initiatives are impact me my peers my teachers and community. In lieu of these ill fated attempts are you now claiming to be the education senator, too?

Robb>>> Well 1st of all let me say if you look at our respective records you will see why the great number of Virginia that are interested and directly involved have suggested that's an appropriate title.

but if you look at what we're doing right now I regret to say most the initiatives that you just referred to and several more are caught up in very bye partisan or I mean very partisan gridlock which has made it almost impossible. I am the author or coauthor of legislation that would provide additional funds to hire 100 thousand new teachers, I'm the author of legislation that would reduce or would provide additional funding for schools so that we could modernize schools and get rid of the three thousand trailers that are here in Virginia.

I am a part of a bipartisan group that has put together a three r's plan that would invest in our schools demand additional accountably and make certain that we're getting the kind of results that we're looking for and would do so in a way that doesn't punish students. It would provide up front funding of in excess of 30 billions dollars or 60 billion dollars over the ten years in terms of the investment in schools without Getting involved education policy with respect to additional teachers and respect to lowering class size and putting money in schools all of that is entirely free.

My opponent on the other hand rejected goals 2000 only governor in the country. Cost us 8.4 million dollars for Virginia students and we didn't get it.

Sabato>>> Thanks to Mr. Robb and our panel. I'm sure the candidates have a different view on that. I think they did a great job.

Now it is time for the candidates to ask the questions of one another. The 1st question by Mr. Allen is for Mr. Robb who will have 130 to respond.

Allen>>> Senator I gave my ideas and get my inspiration from listening to real people across Virginia and as governor I worked hard to improve the lives of people whether it is bringing new jobs in freezing college tuition and reducing class size in schools instead of asking you a negative question I want you to give us a chance to tell us about a couple three Virginia families who inspired you and what you've been able to accomplish for them in the Senate.

Robb>>> Well George, let me suggest to you that I don't normally use the technique of mentioning additional individual families. But I have a long list of projects that have directly affected Virginia families, everything from putting the 600 million dollars into the school I mean into the wilson bridge project getting the VRE to allow us to cross the bridge so we could get 8 thousand cars off the road doing the protection in the harry diamond lab, doing additional money that helps citizens of bay view and i've worked directly with a number of those families on the eastern shore. I've worked 14 years on the project that involved the getting water from lake gaston to some of the hampton road areas.

I worked on tobacco relief for those farmer that have been directly impacted. I worked on the 81 corridor in terms of getting truck safety proposals in place so that some of the people are not placed at risk when they travel up and down that particular highway. I have worked to get the in your home town of the ground center intelligence building I got that transferred to the citizens of in charlottesville so they can use it for additional economic development activities.

I worked on the battle feed commission, I have worked on a whole variety of projects that have had a direct and Lasting impact on Virginia families and on Virginia citizens and it has been very gratifying.

Robb>>> George, when you were in the General Assembly you voted to allow landlords to discriminate against single mothers and you also prevented to prevent fairfax county from prohibiting general discrimination gender discrimination. You event voted to prevent women who were sexual assaulted in the work place from suing their attackers. And you allowed the state to license private clubs that discriminated against women and minorities.

Would you still vote the same way on any of these issues and if you would how would you describe your commitment to fighting discrimination?

Allen>>> Senator I don't know what these particular bills are and I'm sure you'll share them with the media once they are all through and I'm sure you're distorting my record. My view as I stated earlier we want to make sure, I think as a government and a state or as a nation, that all individuals regardless of their race, ethnicity, their gender, or their religious beliefs have an equal opportunity to compete and succeed. And that's why we need to have the tools of opportunity provided by government whether that's education, whether it is safe communities and whether it is positive enterprise tax and regulatory policies.

Now my view is that we ought to make sure as far as women are concerned that they are getting good health care. I'm one insofar as children are concerned that believe that parental notification ought to be true parental notification not what you proposed your parental notification was allowing notification to aunts and uncles and grandparents in las vegas or brothers in frat houses.

That is not true parental notification. As far as when I was concerned when I was governor we led the way to make sure that women had direct access to physician of their choice, their obgyn rather than having to go to other doctors. We made sure if people were giving birth to a child and not rushed out of the hospital. And we also required insurance companies to have pap smear and mammograms for early detection of cancer. So I'm proud of our record for women and all people in Virginia.

Sabato>>> Mr. Allen, you got your revenge now. Next question for Mr. Robb.

Allen>>> Senator, I've had some positive things to say about your running mate Al Gore. The vice-president supported legislation to keep states from being forced to approve same sex marriages but you were amongst the handful of senators to oppose same sex marriages. The vice-president supported a modest tax cut that the president signed but you were one of only eight who voted against it. Vice-president Gore agrees with Governor Bush that we should protect social security by putting in a lock box and you have called that meaningless and these are all examples that where you are to the left of Al Gore could you explain to where you might be to the right of Al Gore?

Robb>>> I've been to the right of Al Gore on the question of whether or not we ought to have balanced budget amendment. Whether we ought to have a line item veto and ought to spend more money on defense, just for starters, I have consistently supported a position that reflects the kind of fiscal responsibility that has always been the hallmark of my government service. And I have frequently had democrats and the administration disagree. As a matter of fact I was so fiscally responsible during the early period of my senate tenure that I was thrown off the budget committee by members of my own conference for being for insisting on too much fiscal responsibility. I was tired of the fact that we continue to talk about fiscal responsibility but we weren't willing to do anything about it. I obviously spent a great deal of time on both the president of the united states his cabinet and chief members to try to get them to really make a big difference when they came in and they put together the Largest deficit reduction package in our nation's history.

And it was because of that package and the 1997 Act that Was fortunately bye partisan and the good sense of the american people and the productivity economy that we are finally in a position where we have the largest surplus in history instead of the largest deficit in history which what is we had when we came n we have created 22 million plus new jobs and we have as I say the strongest economy in a generation. My time is up.

Sabato>>> Mr. Robb, you still have more time. Because you have the final question and in this segment for Mr. Allen.

Robb>>> George, you've been known to come down pretty hard on anyone who differs with you on or the difference of your criticizing your record. Two days ago I quoted from an analysis done by Virginia pilot on or respective positions on to fund programs and cut taxes noting our trillion dollar difference and making the same point, I made in my opening statements the tax cuts you propose or embrace exceed the entire surplus. Yesterday a p polls reported that you denounced my assess. Falsehoods based on nothing convoluted concocted, would you care to explain?

Allen>>> I wish you would have answered my previous question but I'll be very happy to answer your question. Ladies and gentlemen you need to know my priorities as far as the budget is concerned I think that the budget surplus has been created by your hard work your ingenuity and your investment and indeed this is your taxes.

But as far as the budget is concerned the revenue that comes in by social security taxes paid by your or your employer ought to be put in a lock box. My opponent says a lock box is meaningless I think that discipline is very important so the politician stop diverting it as my opponent has done.

But then you take care of priorities, Chuck. And I think my priorities for the national government should be national defense, education, law enforcement, basic scientific research and also put a little aside, put some aside for prescription drug coverage. But after you take care of those priorities only after you take care the priorities then there ought to be a dividend to you the shareholders.

And I think this is a time to make the federal tax code more fair and less burdensome. I implore the one thousand dollar per child education opportunity tax credit to empower parents to buy computers and educational software for their children. We ought to eliminate the marriage penalty tax and a health insurance should be 100 percent deductible and I think we ought to give to death penalty to the death tax so small businesses and family farms can be passed on to their children.

Sabato>>> thank you, Mr. Allen. Now we're going to return to the electronic town hall and we have a few more questions from Virginia for both of you. Now Mr. Robb you have the 1st question.

This is from Tracy Hanh-Burkett. One the most important issues in this election is that of the supreme court. As many as three or four justices may be appointed for life during the next six year senate term. Since the senate bears constitutional responsibility for the president's pick what present or past justices represent the best models for the that you would seek to confirm into the supreme court once they appear before the senate?

Robb>>> Let me say I understand the importance the question and I although apply a litmus test there are number that I have respected, but I would not want to subscribe to every single opinion that any single justice has rendered.

Of those that are currently on the court I can more on than not decide with those that tend to be the swing voters. If I had to pick a single justice that I thought represented the kind of judicial temperament the kind of analytical skills and the kind reason judgment I would probably pick the late lewis powell who one who represented the kind of approach that I would like to see anyone who is appointed to the highest court of the land exhibit in the decisions they render on behalf of all the people of the united states.

Sabato>>> Thank you Mr. Robb and come to think of it, this question really ought to be asked too, to you Mr. Allen. Which justices are your models for confirming once they appear before the senate in the next six years if you're elected to the Senate?

Allen>>> As I said on previous occasions a good way to determine what someone will do in the future is their past performance. As governor I had the responsibility of selecting judges to circuit court intermediate courts and indeed the Supreme court of Virginia.

What I look for in judges depending on what the level of court they are going to be in is sometimes they will their temperament, their judicial scholarship, their opinions, and also I'm going to make sure that the judges understand the proper role of the judiciary. There are people who serve in the legislature branch who want to do good and they can pass laws and governors and presidents can sign them into law.

The role of the judges are to impartially adjudicate disputes so not create law but to interpret the law. Is and so that's what I'm going to look for most of all somebody that understands the proper role of the judiciary to fairly administer the law.

The person who I pointed to the Supreme Court is Cynthia In Virginia. She has done an outstanding job on the Supreme Court she's from lee count and someone I had a great deal of confidence in that would adhere to the principals.on the supreme court the justice I have a great deal of admiration for is justice clarence thomas. I think he has the proper approach and understanding the proper role of the supreme court and the judiciary and I think he is somebody that trusts people to make decisions in their own lives.

Sabato>>> Thank you very much positive both of you for the questions on e questions. I do have one final quick question. This is really on behalf of all the people of Virginia. Every place I travel this is the only thing they bring up. It's really kind of interesting. And it is your television and radio ads. And I know you've heard it too. Your ads and those of your supporting groups have already gotten very harsh and negatives you would admit that privately but not publicly perhaps. And the worse is yet to come in the last two weeks the campaign.

One word answer.

Will the two of you pledge right here and now not to air any more negative tv and radio spots through election day and to try to influence the supporting groups not to air negatives as well yes or no Mr. Allen 1st.

Allen>>> You're asking for unilateral disarmament against a opponent in the last campaign who has coordinated expenditures in which they pay several tens of thousand dollars.

Sabato>>> That's not a one word answer. Suppose he says yes Will you say yes?

Allen>>> I don't think it would be true if he said it. Here is what I would try to do, Larry. I would try to motivate and inspire people for our campaign rather than just use scare tactics. And that's what I'm going to try to continue to do and will continue to do in our campaign.

Sabato >>> That was a no.

Robb>>> In a word yes if you will agree to, I would be happy to.

Sabato>>> Why don't you two shake on it. Do it right here.

Allen>>> We could shake on it, but how is it going to be enforced?

Allen>>> How much did your folks have to pay in fines?

Robb>>> Zero dollars, George.

Allen>>> I'm sure you're trying to make that for a long time, but they did not.

Sabato >>> If I agree to enforce, will you two shake?

Allen>>> If you agree to enforce it how are you going to do that?

Robb>>> Let me suggest as long as we're having an informal discussion the Mccain-Feingold law would send us in the right direction. It is not perfect but a step in the right discretion. I'm cosponsor for and I wonder if my opponent would join me in agreeing.

Allen >>> We need to disclose. We know who is contributing to the campaigns I think the people of Virginia ought to know who are making the contributions and my opponent has voted against the measures.

Robb>>> Absolutely not. We just passed a law in the united states senate, in the Congress.

Allen>>> Why are you not disclosing?

Robb>>> I am disclosing.

Sabato>>> I started this it is my fault and I want to apologize to my fellow Virginians, I tried and it failed. They are fine fellows and we hope they won't be too harsh and negative on each other in the final weeks. Let's go to the very last segment – closing remarks.

Robb>>> thank you, Larry. And I thank those of you at home for sticking with us. We've touched on a number of issues tonight. But this election is about much more than just these issues as important as they are.

As the terrorist attack on the U.S.S. Cole reminded us we still live in a dangerous world and the united states senator has to deal with the great war and peace issues. Authorizing military force to ratifying international treaties. They have to make difficult decisions that will affect or economy and our way of life. Experience in dealing with these issues and having the respect of senators on both sides the political isle is important if you want someone with a long record of support that keep america strong who doesn't flip flop When the going gets tough and has a strong and consistent record and a responsible gun safety plan and who will continue to fight for civil rights, human rights and reproductive rights, then I ask your vote on November 7th.

Sabato>>> Thank you, Mr. Robb. Mr. Allen, one minute closing remarks.

Allen>>> Folks, I think closing remarks ought to be positive not negative. And if you give me the honor of working for you as your senator these are the principles that will guide me. I trust to you to make more decisions in your life. That's why I want to empower parents with a thousand dollars education tax credit. You see, I believe in an america where our children grow up and in safe drug free environment and where we have high aspiration and champion schools for all of our children regardless of their economic situation or where they live.

I believe in an america where we embrace the advantages of technology to improve our lives. I believe in an america where we cherish our senior citizens and will you them to make we are protecting their social security. I believe in america. We understand it is important to invest wisely in our military and a country that keeps its promises to the veterans. And yes, I still believe in an america where parents look to our elected leaders as role models for our children.

If you share this positive vision I ask for your vote on November 7th. Thank you and good evening.

Sabato>>> Now, one final thing and I'm going to wrap up and literally one sentence or part of a sentence what do you most admire about your opponent in a fraction of a sentence, Mr. Robb?

Robb>>> The fact that he can stay on message without being terribly concerned about whether it is factually accurate. It is a real skill in the political process and I admire him for that.

Sabato>>> Mr. Allen.

Allen>>>> He's staying negative. That's no matter what.

Sabato>>> There we go. I got to wrap. Thank you, Mr. Robb, Mr. Allen, for participating in tonight's debate. On behalf of all Virginia NBC stations thank you for joining us and please remember to vote on November 7th. Good evening.

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